Category Archives: Wing Chun vs

My Art Can Beat Your Art

It has been a while since I have trolled the various forums I used to visit, so I decided to take a look today and see what has been happening. Sadly, not much has changed (which, besides not having a lot of spare time, is one of the reasons I stopped visiting them). Sometimes reading through the topics and debates just plain gets you depressed.

Why are so many people still vehement about lineage? Who cares where something comes from, as long as it works? Does it really matter if something is “pure”, “original”, “modified”, etc? It would be one thing is something worked and then because of a change, it no longer worked. But the changes we have seen over the generations do work, and in many cases, they are improved.

When it comes right down to it, no one is doing “pure” or “original” Wing Chun unless all you are doing is Siu-Nim-Tau, a bit of Chi-sau, and the knives. That is the origination of Wing Chun as related through records from Dr. Leung Jan, so if you are doing anything beyond that, then you, too, are doing “modified” Wing Chun.

All I care about is if it works in real life. My attacker will not care who my Si-fu is or what my lineage is when he is sticking a knife at my throat. It is just really sad that these silly debates still go on.

What is almost as bad is another one concerning what art is the best. I have seen a lot of debates from non-Wing Chun practitioners who continuously state that what they do is the best way, the more efficient way, the modern way, etc. I have been hearing this for over 30 years and I am sure it has been going on for generations before that.

“Your art has no ground fighting!”

Yes it does, but we do everything we can to stay on our feet.

“Your demos of takedowns are so unrealistic that it’s laughable!”

Sadly I had to agree with that one because after seeing the video they referred to, it really was a bit too over the top. However, that is why they are called demonstrations and not sparring. Besides, laughing is good for you, so at least you still got something out of it, right?

“Have any of you people ever had a real fight?”

For many of us, the answer to that question is yes, which is why we still train this art which has kept us safe. Since opening the AWCA in 1993, I have had over 20 challenge fights. I am still here, still training and still a stringent believer in the effectiveness and efficiency of Wing Chun. I do not like fighting, but I know for a fact that the skill set is there and that it works.

“Ppphhfft. You people stink. Let’s see where you are when you’re in your 70′s and have to fight some punk. I’ll take such-and-such art any day over Wing Chun.”

Actually, that is another reason we train Wing Chun. Take a very good look at many art’s masters and what do you see? Irreparable damage to fists, elbows, knees and shins, some to the point that they cannot hold a cup anymore and others who cannot walk unassisted.

Now, look at Wing Chun masters in their 70′s, 80′s and 90′s, and what do you see? Besides being older, they are still upright. They can still make a fist and drive it through a wall. They do not need assistance just to walk.

Let’s see where you are in your 70′s? The odds are in my favor that not only will my chosen art keep me fit without damaging my body, but it will still enable me to remain safe vs. the acrobatics or primarily ground fighting/grappling that popular arts see today. My art does not require youth or extreme fitness to work. I am an average guy with a normal lifestyle rather than a 20 year old bent to make a name for myself in MMA tournaments.

I guess some things will never change, though. As we have seen through the decades, these negative opinions will always be around. Rather than everyone simply acknowledging that all arts have their place in one way or another, you will always see others putting someone else down because they do something differently.

For those that read all of the comments on a forum and it gets to you? My advice is to do what I did: Stop going there. It does not serve a purpose unless you are lucky enough to find one that actually respects others and their preferred methods. They might not agree with what you say, but they do have the courtesy and maturity to discuss it in a civil manner without being immature or rude. When you find someone who makes you question yourself, it can open a lot of doors for you if you approach it with the correct mind set.

The sad part with people who like to bash others is that they also have no clue how much disrespect they demonstrate to their own teacher, their heritage, and even their school. What instructor in his/her right mind would condone one of their students showing such utter disrespect to another person? It is a clear sign of immaturity and one that you should stay away from.

Maybe someday the martial circles will mature to a point that they can agree to disagree, and leave it at that without all of the name calling, disrespect, and everything else we read on forums. Admittedly I do not have my hopes up, but then again, this is when I remember the late Senator Ted Kennedy giving the eulogy at his brother Robert’s funeral. He quoted his brother saying:

Some men see things as they are and ask ‘why’.
I dream things that never were and ask ‘why not’.

Maybe someday.

Wing Chun vs The Shoot

Today’s martial environment includes a host of takedowns and ground fighting applications. Due to mixed martial arts, we have all seen an explosion of jiu-jitsu and mma schools around the world. I am a big fan of mma because this approach attempts to bring realism back into the world of mainstream martial arts vs blindingly training something because their teacher says it will work as trained.

Like Wing Chun, their thought is that it needs to be trained and tested in today’s environment to really see how it will fare, and I am all for that. While I might not follow their methods of the art they work, I certainly follow their vision of keeping things as real as possible.

One of the more common applications that most will see in this type of fighting is the shoot. Regardless of the tactic that got them there, a shoot is when an attacker drives in low in order to take the opponent down. This can include single leg, double leg, a follow up sweep to collapse the defender’s body around himself, or any other combination that puts him on the ground.

The Wing Chun response to a shoot depends on how it is enacted, but one thing most of the defenses share is that we do not counter-grapple with a grappler. I would never box a boxer because I am not a boxer. I would never kick with a kicker, and I would never grapple with a grappler. Doing so would mean fighting their fight and adhering to the tactics they are used to vs fighting my fight and sticking with how I work my own tactics.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that a shooter will telegraph what he is doing. A good shooter will be on you like there is no tomorrow, and the next thing you know you are on your back being choked out.

Also, if a shooter drives in and you successfully defend, do not think he will automatically withdraw in order to try again. In many cases, he will immediately change to another attack and work a new angle, striving to take advantage of every millimeter of ground they can gain and work whatever limb is presented.

So let’s take a common double-leg shoot and examine a couple of responses to see how a Wing Chun fighter might respond. Note the keyword of “might” here because there are a number of ways to respond to any given situation. I will simply describe one of the more common methods I have seen from my own experiences.

In this scenario, the attack sees a fake or even multiple punches to the top zone in order to draw your arms forward for the defense. This creates a hole to which the attacker drives low and into your legs. Grasping fully around your legs, a number of takedowns can occur ranging from trips and lifts to throws. This scenario will see one leg wrap around yours to trip you backwards while the attacker maintains a firm grasp to follow you down for a choke or lock.

The first action is the upper zone. Wing Chun’s concept of fighting dictates that when anything comes in, we respond to it. If it suddenly changes direction, Chi-sau has taught us to instantly respond even if we do not get the chance to make contact for feeling where the attack has changed to. Because of this, we need to work our Chi-sau in the gym so that even without feeling, we drive through the open holes.

Where a fake or feint is present, there is no opponent there to hit. Therefore, the direction immediately changes to a low trajectory. Biu-Tze’s third section includes Jik-jarn, or Vertical-elbow (also called Dim-jarn by some), which is quite adept at changing the arm from an out-stretched punch to an immediate elbow attack driving straight down into the back of the opponent’s head or into his neck/spinal column. The force of Jik-jarn is such that your entire body drives down with it vs merely an arm action itself. Because of this, you can see the permanent injuries that can result to an attacker when they expose the back of their head.

There are two schools of thought as to what the low body should be doing when a shoot comes in. One is to sprawl backwards so that the attacker cannot grab the legs. The second is to take the opposite approach in that rather than backwards, we explode forwards. Moving forward, we drive a knee into the attacker’s face.

Depending on the attack, this may or may not work. It has a better chance of success if the attack is thigh level, but it will almost always fail if the attack is shin level (meaning that the attacker himself is lower and out of the way). You will never know which attack is appropriate until the attack actually happens, so those that train only to drive their knee forward will find themselves in a sticky situation if the shoot is performed by a trained fighter who knows to go very low (which improves his odds of taking you down).

Personally, I feel safer driving into my opponent and working tight, explosive elbows and knees. If the opponent goes extremely low, I will slam my palm down to his head and drive his head into my knee. This has the effect of doubling the power with half the effort.

However, if the attack is really explosive and powerful, chances are that he will drive right over you like a bulldozer. In this case, you need to work explosive Hau-bo or Wang-bo actions so that you are either further away or stepping to the side. This is not as easy as it sounds, though, because both of these actions will still leave a leg exposed to which the attacker can grab. While I feel more comfortable at driving into an attacker and working knees and elbows, the sheer physics of someone blasting into your legs will immediately put the odds in their favor; therefore, you need to work both of these drills with a trained shooter in order to learn the mechanics of how your body will respond.

The Basics

The sport of mixed martial arts has, without a doubt, caused a renewed interest in the communities, as well as introducing the martial arts to a brand new audience. Personally, I love the UFC and what it is doing to promote it to the masses.

And while some of you might think that since this article is titled “Wing Chun vs Jiu-jitsu” will attempt to trash Jiu-jitsu, you would be wrong. In fact, far from it. Jiu-jitsu has more than proven itself both in and out of the ring, and even if it didn’t, those that know me already know that I have a great respect for all martial arts.

Instead, articles such as this are merely to educate the Wing Chun practitioner in arts they might be unfamiliar with.

In that light, let’s take a brief look at how a Wing Chun fighter could approach a jiu-jitsu fighter. Note that this is only a possible scenario since anything can and usually does happen in the real world. On the flip side, this is not the ring and there are no rules. If something here pinches a nerve, take into consideration that there are tons of “what if’s” out there.

First, let’s consider a jiu-jitsu fighter’s preferred method to fighting. Striking is not out of their realm, but their primary goal is to submit you, to lock a joint to the point that if you do not give up, you will never use it again. In addition to this, you can quickly get choked out without even knowing how they did it. And yes, they are that fast. I have heard a plethora of Wing Chun fighters proclaim that no one would ever get them down because they are too slow. In my opinion, they have no clue what they are talking about because an accomplished jiu-jitsu fighter will have you squealing in seconds.

So how does a Wing Chun fighter contend with this?

First, never grapple with a grappler. Let me repeat that: NEVER GRAPPLE WITH A GRAPPLER. You would not box a boxer, and you would not kick fight with a kicker. Fight your fight, not the fight of the attacker.

Possible responses are:

1. Against shooting in, drive your elbows into the back of their head or the back of their neck. Immediately continue with chain-punches and drive them into the ground.
2. Another response to shoots is to immediately start slamming your fists into their face, head, neck, throat, etc. Wallbag and dummy training condition your fists and limbs to withstand a great deal of punishment like this if trained correctly.
3. Remember section 2 of the Siu-Nim-Tau? Or most of the Chum-Kiu? Many think that Wing Chun does not have anti-grappling movements, forgetting that the art was created to defeat the Shaolin methods (many of which are grappling, takedown and fighting methods). Yes, Wing Chun does have anti-grappling and anti-takedown movements. In fact, the first and second movements of the wooden dummy are exclusively for that very thing.

Some will vie to sprawl out against an incoming shoot, and at first that does not sound like a bad idea. But if you sprawl out, then you are going to the ground. The ground is the last place you want to be, particularly with a grappler.

First of all, the ground is the grappler’s preferred environment. It is there that he/she works best and is in their realm. Second, our art’s preferred environment is standing up. On the ground we are very limited, particularly in the real world when the attacker’s buddies are coming in to join the fray.

Ground work for the ring is essential, but in the real world where cowardice runs rampant (and is usually followed with “whiskey muscles”), your odds of having to contend with more than one attacker are greater than ever.

Do you really want to be on the ground where you have limited mobility and you are at the bottom of a dog pile? No, you do not. So increase your odds by doing everything you possibly can to stay off the ground.

One other possible response is to utilize knees into the face, coupled with driving your palms down on the back of the head, adding a double force to the effect. It is not as easy as many think it is, but it is a viable response if trained.

Now, nothing can truly beat working your skills against a willing jiu-jitsu practitioner that wants to experiment working with you. At first, you might find yourself in situations that you never thought you would be in. But do not look at this as a bad thing; instead, you are there to learn, right? Keep it a learning experience and always stay positive by examining what works in Wing Chun against these types of attacks.

Work the concepts and work them to competence. Do not just do a few drills and think “I got it.” No you don’t. It takes thousands of repetitions to create a nerve pathway so that something happens automatically without you having to think about it. And that is how many times you have to work every concept of Wing Chun to make it automatic.

To prepare for a match, a professional fighter works one week for every minute they will fight. Think about that the next time you wonder if you are up for the task.

And also keep in mind that this article is just a basic look at the “what if’s.” There are a variety of things that could happen, so think about this as you work your drills and learn more about the concepts that makes Wing Chun truly effective. In this way, you continue learning more about something in a different light that was right in front of you the whole time.

The Basics

With two arts very different, the comparisons between them are night and day. Wing Chun will vie to remain in fist range while driving straight in to keep things harder to see. Meanwhile, a taekwondo practitioner (and yes, it is one word) will strive to utilize their most powerful of weapons: their kicks.

I trained in the H.K.Kim style of taekwondo (TKD for short) for approximately nine years, eventually earning 2nd dan while serving in the United States Army. For most TKD styles, black belt levels one through five are technical, i.e. the skill of a practitioner, while levels six through nine are based on what a person has done for the art.

In general, TKD is a kicking art, so they use their kicks as much as possible. Not only is it the strongest weapon of the body, but the legs are also the longest. Because of this, kicks are seen as being generally safer. The downside to this is that kicks require a great deal of energy to be used effectively, and they are also somewhat telegraphed.

It is detrimental, however, to assume that just because an art favors a particular weapon that they are lacking in other areas. On the contrary, TKD also has some extremely powerful punches, elbows and knee strikes. In addition, the movements can quickly traverse to other actions when intercepted, making a proficient TKD practitioner a formidable opponent.

A Wing Chun fighter’s strategy for dealing with TKD opponents would be to first consider the range he/she is working in. A TKD fighter prefers to remain in kicking distance; therefore, a Wing Chun fighter would want to completely eliminate that range by closing the gap and getting in to fist range. Not only does this remove the room that a TKD fighter would use for their kicks, but it also gets you into your own preferred range, namely fist-fighting range.

Second, consider the premise of how many – if not most – martial arts execute their applications. Usually they are of a one-two type of action, whereas in Wing Chun our actions are simultaneous. Rather than defend then punch, we defend while counter-attacking.

That in itself is an overwhelming point that many opponent’s have difficulty in handling. But the reason behind that is only as good as the Wing Chun fighter employing it.

For example, if you are attacked and you utilize simultaneous attack and defense for only a brief moment, you allow the opponent to regain their defenses. The moment you stop, you give the opponent time to recover.

Instead, once you go on the attack you stay on the attack. There is no such thing as letting up in Wing Chun, because everything we do relies on the continuous counter-attacks that we engage in. Where TKD is concerned, this is vitally important so that we do not give ground and allow the opponent to regain the distancing needed for their kicks.

As mentioned, we should also not assume that a TKD practitioner will only utilize kicks, because assuming that will see you on your back when a fast, powerful back-fist comes crashing into your face. Kicks are only one weapon they utilize, and their fists, palms, knife hands, elbows and knees are quite powerful, too.

Therefore, when you engage any opponent (not just TKD) and you go on the offensive, you stay on the offensive in order to keep the pressure on. Keep close and tight in order to stay within your preferred fist-fighting range, and really hammer in with every punch, palm and/or elbow.